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| Responses to "Opinion: Technophobe Misses the Mark in Blame for Mass Suicide" |
Note: To keep the files at reasonable sizes, I have created this separate page for the interchange between Kurt Barnhart and myself.
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The Illusion of Cause and Effect
Larry... I think you were too hard on Rodriguez. His piece was a philosophical essay, not a reporting exercise, and I did not read into it that he was blaming San Diego, California, the West Coast, high technology, the Web, or Bill Gates for the suicides. He mentioned "the Age of Bill Gates and Microsoft", which I believe is an apt description of our times and the reality we live in today. He never blamed Gates directly for the suicides, as your headline "Writer Blames Bill Gates for Mass Suicide" states. Whether you call these days "the Age of Bill Gates", the "Andreeson Era" or "The Larry Edwards Show", I agree with him that the conditions which existed in this dimension on this planet last week were the catalysts that enabled the suicides to happen. The universe is a web of energy, ideas, perceptions, events, matter and time. All things in the universe are connected and intertwined. We and our ancestors have collectively created the reality in which we live. The Heaven's Gate event is the culmination of billions of interrelated events, including the belief systems of the leader and each cult member, the beliefs of all their families and everyone they associated with, and all of their combined life experiences. All people and energies on the earth share in the responsibility, in varying degrees, for what happened in RSF. Until we recognize this and the interconnectedness of all things and events, incidents like this will continue to occur. Back to the L.A. Times... Rodriguez' related quotes which I think best illustrate his theme were... "In the end, the religion propounded by Heaven's Gate owes more to the Age of Bill Gates and Microsoft than to the Age of Saint Teresa and the illuminated manuscript." I'd say that's true. "There is a disdain for the given, a sense that our future can only be individually experienced, individually imagined, free of the impediments of flesh and blood." Bingo. Have you been to a video arcade with a teenager lately? "This is not religion. It is the expression of despair in our technological age." The Heaven's Gate 39 was a motley crew from all over... who possessed host of personal problems long before they met do-re-mi Captain Applewhite. The constant exposure to supergrowth technology was to them like sunshine is to a skin lesion. Larry, can you really disagree with this philosophically? You may be too sheltered in your comfortable San Diego technology beat. Talk to some foreign correspondents or spot newspeople in large urban markets. There is rampant despair throughout the U.S. and beyond our borders among the young, the unemployed, the homeless and the poor. At least a part of that despair is related to the technological advances which have rendered the infirm, the uneducated and the technically un-savvy an unwanted commodity. Another part is directly connected to the frantic pace of life in the world of the web and light speed communications. It's hard these days for even sophisticated, educated people of means to keep up with the constant spin of critical events! Finally, your rebuttal seemed too defensive and protective of the media back through time, from Gutenberg to the web. I didn't see anywhere that Rodriguez advocated restrictions on free speech, and would be surprised if he did in a subsequent rebuttal. So, Larry, I say go to your room, take off your boxing gloves, read the Rodriguez piece again and be nice!
— Kurt Barnhart (Readers Note: Larry Edwards and I are long-time great friends. Please do not interperet my response as anything other than a fun-seeking bar room debate. — KB)
Kurt,
You may be right. I may be reading too much into it and maybe I am being overly defensive. But I received a similar reply from Richard (not Richard Rodriguez) and reread the editorial several times. I believe I have interpretted Mr. Rodriguez's comments correctly, as I state in my rebuttal.
I will also point out that I believe you scuttle your own argument by correctly stating that most people in the group had been in it for some time — even before Bill Gates had founded Microsoft, let alone become a household name.
While technology may play a role in the despair of today's youth, I don't think you can stretch that to make it a scapegoat for the mass suicide, which Rodriguez quite clearly attempts to do.
Thanks for responding. This illustrates the bright side of the Internet and this technology — the exchange of ideas.
— Larry Larry ... Ah, yes — most people in the group had been in it for some time — but not until the "Age of Gates and Microsoft" — let's call it the "Age of Supergrowth Technology" instead — did the environment exist that served as the catalyst for the events that occurred. I did not think that Rodriguez was attempting to make (technology itself) a scapegoat for the mass suicide. Instead, I felt he was attributing the suicide to "the Age" in which we presently live. That "Age" happens to be dominated by supergrowth technology, of which Microsoft and its chairman Bill Gates are merely one of many sources. — Kurt
I truly am befuddled by your reasoning. I don't understand how you can draw that conclusion, but I want to. What about that Swiss-based group that burns itself up? Is the "Age of Supergrowth Technology" to blame for that too?
Certainly Rodriguez is making technology the scapegoat, and it appears that that's the point you're making with your reference to the "Age of Bill Gates ..." being a catalyst to the suicides.
— Larry Larry, What you are missing is the interconnectedness of all things and the futility of assigning "blame" for every unexpected event. Please re-read my earlier paragraph reprinted here... "The universe is a web of energy, ideas, perceptions, events, matter and time. All things in the universe are connected and intertwined. We and our ancestors have collectively created the reality in which we live. The Heaven's Gate event is the culmination of billions of interrelated events, including the belief systems of the leader and each cult member, the beliefs of all their families and everyone they associated with, and all of their combined life experiences. All people and energies on the earth share in the responsibility, in varying degrees, for what happened in RSF." To elaborate ... Many people search in vain for causes and reasons to explain events and situations. We dissect things (as both you and Rodriguez did in your essays) into minute pieces and create an illusion of individual cause and effect. The result of these efforts is often a failure to reach censensus and eventual meaninglessness. The search for cause is futile in an interconnected universe, because all matter and energy are merely part of a much greater whole, changing and evolving under its own momemtum. In response to your question: Is the "Age of Supergrowth Technology" also to blame for the Swiss-based group that burned itself up? I substituted the term the "Age of Supergrowth Technology" for the "Age of Bill Gates and Microsoft" to illustrate that Rodriguez was referring to the noun "Age of" rather than Bill Gates the human individual. This was because you were obsessing on the idea that Rodriguez was saying Bill Gates was personally responsible for the suicides. I thought he was saying a) that their (religious) beliefs were responsible for their suicides, and b) their beliefs were more related to the present day environment (today, "the Age of" Bill Gates... etc.) than to the beliefs of distant past ("the Age of" Saint Teresa in the 16th Century). So forget the "Age of Supergrowth Technology" and the "Age of Bill Gates and Microsoft" (both of which mean NOW, today) and say this instead... "The conditions which existed in this dimension on this planet at the time of the suicides were the catalysts that enabled them to happen." Or say this... All the interconnected energy, ideas, beliefs, perceptions, events, and matter that existed in and around the house in Rancho Santa Fe on March 23, 1997 contributed to the 39 individual decisions to participate in a suicide pact. Now that's a convoluted way of saying: Yes! Bill Gates is partly to blame. Larry Edwards is also partly to blame. Kurt Barnhart is partly to blame. The parents of each of the cult members, the neighbors, the inventor and manufacturer of phenobarbital, the distiller of the vodka, the manufacturer of the plastic bags and the energy field in the Oort Belt where comet Hale Bopp was formed are all partly to blame. I disagree with your interperetation that Rodriguez is blaming Bill Gates and the web for the event in Rancho Santa Fe. Your rallying cry in defense of both is unnecessary and misses the point. Neither is to blame and both are to blame along with everything else that existed at the time of the event in question. Forget the idea of "blame". Please discourage those who would run around looking for "blame" so that someone/thing can be penalized and a bunch of laws can be debated, enacted and enforced by government entities that are already wasting too many resources and time on things that cannot be controlled. Abandon the illusion of individual cause and effect. Is there one particular person or whale or current or wind in the middle of the Pacific Ocean that is to "blame" for the 2 1/2 foot wave that struck the sixth pole from the beach on the right side of the pier at Ocean Beach at 13:47:18.99 hours after midnight on March 23, 1997? No, of course not. Everything in the ocean, in the air and on the land participated in creating the conditions that allowed that wave to crest there and then. And likewise everything contributed to the event in Rancho Santa Fe. I would encourage journalists of your caliber (journalists plural — Edwards, Rodriguez and others) to take advantage of the opportunity afforded by this event to raise the awareness of the public at large. Help them understand how all life is interdependent. Help them understand how little things — like kindness and charity - can help create a reality in time, "An Age of —" where people are not overwhelmed by comet apparations or supergrowth technology. An Age where people are not moved to despair by events and circumstances to self destruct. — Kurt
Kurt,
Rodriguez says, "In the end, the religion (and its advocacy of suicide) propounded by Heaven's Gate owes more to the Age of Bill Gates and Microsoft ... ." Why even mention Bill Gates and Microsoft at all if he's not finding fault?
Later, he describes his "brave new line" and questions, "... is it again that the (California) coastline is encouraging many of us to seek a new world (in cyberspace) because the ocean reminds us of land's end?"
His entire commentary, from the lead graf to his concluding statements, centers around the suicides, which he claims are the result of despair. That point alone is debateable, though I lean toward agreement with him there. But by bringing technology, Bill Gates, Microsoft and the West Coast's high-tech community (Do the East Coast high-tech communities at Cambridge/Boston, Alexandria and Charlotte have no bearing on this?) into the equation, he most certainly is laying blame, either as a direct causal factor, or, as you say, as the catalyst. I don't see how that can be denied.
But I still don't see the causal relationship. It's a huge leap (pardon the pun) to say that because a few of the group's members used computers and surfed cyberspace, they all became disallusioned and committed suicide. Just go to their own Web page. They'll tell you what the catalyst was — the Hale-Bopp Comet that was providing a jetstream for the alleged spacecraft to approach Earth and pick up the true believers.
The Web was a relatively inexpensive tool for them to spread the word about their beliefs, just as tens of thousands of businesses and non-profit organizations use it to market their products, services and point of view. The Web also provided a revenue source, albeit a small one. But the catalyst/cause for the suicides? I still see no evidence of it.
People are seeking answers to why the Heaven's Gate disciples willingly ended their lives on this planet. Technology and the Internet and "the Age of Bill Gates and Microsoft" are being blamed by some people. If I truly wanted to be bombastic, I would call it a witchhunt.
The question I have is why? Why can't people of Rodriguez's ilk accept that fact that this group of 39 people had beliefs radically different from the majority of the population and due to an astrological phenomenon acted on those beliefs? Period. End of story.
— Larry
(You know what the worst part about this interchange is? I'm actually defending Bill Gates and Microsoft. What a remarkable phenomenon that is in itself!) |
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Larry,
This discussion is getting too complex for my pea brain!
As I said, I think he was talking about now, today. He described these times as "The Age of Bill Gates and Microsoft" to represent the dominance of technology in the 1990s.
I'm lost on that one. I slept through all of English Lit and most of the Haight Ashbury stuff. Sorry.
Seems like a cheap bet. Although, maybe they were really happy about dying. Believe it or not, that's becoming a more prevalent preference, with guys like Timothy Leary and Jack Kevorkian leading the way.
See my previous response about the futility of finding blame. Maybe people in Boston, Alexandria and Charlotte don't read the L.A. Times.
Why must you find a causal relationship? Let it go!
If it weren't Hale Bopp, maybe it would have been their despair over the renaming of Jack Murpy Stadium. Who could predict how these kinds of people rationalize things? The lives of the cult members and circumstances in which they lived served as the catalysts for their action. If any of the circumstances had been different, it is logically impossible to determine what alternate course of action may have occurred. Without any one of the elements which existed, perhaps a different decision would have been made. In too many cases we try to find blame and legislate the future to prevent unexpected or unwanted events. This is futile because the unexpected will always happen. The forces of the earth (including human behavior) are greater than the effective powers of our legislatures and law enforcement agencies. Example: A man works overtime, leaves work 30 minutes later than usual and is killed in a collision with a truck on the freeway. Clearly, if he had left at his usual time he would have passed safely ahead the truck by 30 minutes (assuming that the truck's path remained the same). An angry group launches an initiative to ban overtime work. Another group proposes an alternative — allow overtime, but close the freeways. Still another group demands that trucks be banned. But it's all futile.
The web also served to notify parents of the danger of such messages, and thus the Heaven's Gate cult may actually have prevented future similar events, just as small natural brush files can help prevent future, more destructive forest fires.
Which is a perfectly natural, yet futile, human reaction. Technology and the Internet and "the Age of Bill Gates and Microsoft" are being blamed by some people. If I truly wanted to be bombastic, I would call it a witchhunt. So... be bombastic. Those 39 people are still just as dead, the internet is still the internet, and Bill Gates was still chairman of Microsoft as I typed this sentence.
Because it's much more complex than that and the collective human intellect is not developed to the point that we can find the answer. And because Richard Rodriguez, Larry Edwards and Kurt Barnhart like to see their names in print. We live in a wonderful world of egos and illusions.
And I bet Bill will thank you some day. We live in a wonderful world of illusions. — Kurt
Kurt,
You are very perceptive and make several cogent points. However, they are misdirected. You should be addressing Mr. Rodriguez, not me.
I never set out to explain why the 39 people committed suicide. Rodriguez did. His answer? The despair over the myths and false promises of the Age of Bill Gates and Microsoft, computer technology, cyberspace, the Web and, by association, the Internet. I simply disagreed with him and said so.
In your eloquent prose, you illustrated very well what a complex world we live in and how all these factors play a role in the decisions we make for ourselves, and to attempt to isolate one of these factors as the overriding cause is treading on thin ice, if not outright foolish. I couldn't agree with you more.
But Rodriguez did cull out one of the factors and thereon laid the blame. In my humble opinion, he's not only wrong, but irresponsible, and is playing into the hands of knee-jerk reactionaries and self-serving politicians looking for an excuse to grab headlines and create more needless laws.
— Larry |
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- Original Article: Technophobe Misses the Mark in Blame for Mass Suicide
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